♦Welcome to another edition of the Open Book Blog Hop!♦
Topic #437
At which stage in the writing process do you seek feedback and from whom?
Welcome back to another Open Book Blog Hop! The authors included in this ongoing series wish to thank you for your reads. Even more so, we appreciate that you share our writings with friends. If you’re new to the series, welcome aboard. The authors engage and impress weekly. Prepare to become a regular reader.
Let me address the would be writers in the room, who I like to think are my general audience… All stages are a great place to get feedback. What you can do with it is up to you, based on where you are at both mentally (your reception of the feedback) and where you are at in the publishing stages of your manuscript. If you’re not mentally prepared to hear something, really great feedback is likely to miss you. Don’t get swept up in feelings. We all want to be further along in our journey than we are. To get there, we have to take feedback constructively and address our mistakes. Prepare to have your bias slapped around.
Firstly, mistakes aren’t to be avoided. I do not care who you are and how much money you make in this field. Your notoriety doesn’t mark you safe from legitimate criticism and making mistakes. There will be no stage in your writing career where you cannot learn something new and, therefore, better your writing for it. I write on here, hoping that would be writers who read this hop find something useful. The road I walked was hard, because I didn’t have anyone to help me. I insist on being that person for others now.
Let’s get started with: humility and frame of mind.
Humility is one of your greatest tools on your belt. So is honesty–with yourself and others. That means looking deep within to your fears and misgivings. You need both humility and honesty to reflect on yourself and your goals. This said, some insist on mistaking honesty for a lack of humility.
For instance, getting miffed about a writer who has a degree feeling that their skills outpace others who don’t have a degree. Well, it’s not untrue. When you spend the time working on your craft in this capacity you’re not only getting a piece of paper, you’re getting a ton of feedback and practice, studying your artform. It’s exactly like an apprenticeship. You’re put through the paces to earn that paper.
In addition, degreed people have also done all of the steps those who don’t go through university claim are just as equal. However, self-teaching doesn’t have structure or focus. It is simply what you stumble upon and seek to look at. How do you know what to look for? What are you focused on learning? Do you reject things as elitist thinking depending on how it is delivered? Regardless, a degreed individual has been institutionally vetted on top of all the other stuff, including being prepared to benefit from self-learning by knowing how to structure and examine what they stumble upon. They’ve done a lot of work! Respect it.
You can be mad about that, or you can do the work. And, why shouldn’t you? Is there some reason you’re more special and don’t need to do learning? See how that works? It goes both ways. Honestly, however, it doesn’t carry water to suggest someone who has done vastly more work isn’t more skilled. That’s just anti-intellectualism that seeks to devalue education and divert the masses from seeking better knowledge. It’s dangerous and it is sloppy.
Think of it this way: it would be like telling a master artisan carver or master cabinet maker that a self-taught, hobbyist dabbling deserves the same consideration as their master work. It isn’t grandstanding to defend an earned skillset in the face of such poo-pooing. You’re literally pissing on their work and everything they did to get that work accomplished. But somehow that master is the problem not the other guy? Would you tell an olympian that some guy who swims on the weekend is better than they are? Or, is this different because those medals somehow declare hard work where a degree doesn’t?
One of the best places I found to get feedback was via learning in the collegiate realm. There you find people who made a life of studying literature and writing–the masters if you will. They have explored it thoroughly. Panning these individuals as egoistic and uppity speaks more about the person saying so than it does their proven skill sets sitting right out in your face.
There’s a reason higher education exists. It is there to improve your knowledge of a specific skill. If you’re able to take courses, do it. No one can take that learning and experience from you. It only benefits you and your skillset. It doesn’t matter if it’s a Harvard course or something offered by your local high school. Courses are structured to expose you to a curriculum of learning for skills improvement and knowledge expansion. It sets you up to successfully self teach other things that don’t need all that structure.
Or, you could be mad about it, demand respect for what you don’t actually have, and continue in that cycle. But don’t get mad at someone who has done this, and sacrificed to make it happen, as elitist. That’s only going to hurt you in the end, creating a bitterness instead of improving your writing.
Look, being self-taught is not the same as having degrees. There are very few successful autodidacts, and it is disingenuous to believe they have no formal education along with their individual endeavors. Albert Einstein is often cited, but he received his PhD in Zurich in 1914. Eddison even attended Cooper Union before proceeding to steal from others with degrees (such as Nikola Tesla: Graz University of Technology, Karlovac Gymnasium, Charles University). Oprah Winfrey went to University of Tennessee. The list of presumed autodidacts goes on and on like that. The overarching similarity is that they know how to create self-coursework.
When you think you can’t or don’t need to take classes (aside from financial limitations), what you’re actually experience is the concern that you will have to face your worst fear: I am not any good at this. I see you out here comparing yourself to that person in class. Well, if that is what you find out, then you’ve taken the steps to fix your failings. Keep going. When you want to do something like writing, studying and growing your skills is only going to benefit you in the long run, regardless of age. Do this for yourself, seek out grants and other financial help. There is no time stamp on learning. Face your fears. I bet, instead of finding out you suck, that you’ll find out you’ve got a great skill that simply needs honing. Even masters hone their craft and continue to practice. It reinvigorates the desire!
Perhaps, also, you’re afraid to face bullies set on ripping you apart regardless of how good you are. Here’s a secret: they’re going to be out there no matter where you hide. Authors, for one, cannot hide. Unfortunately, our field has become extremely public in this social media world. We put ourselves out there and get slapped around quite a bit.
By now, I know that you must feel the same way I do about the phrase: don’t attribute to malice what you can attribute to ignorance. I had a boss who used to say this when I had to deal with arrogant higher ups treating me like I had no brains in my head because of the job title I held. I said back: Don’t fool yourself into thinking every person has your best interest at heart. Some folks just like to cause hurt and exert their power. And, they will manipulate others into being their minions, adding to the pile up, but also hurting those folks because bitterness and envy does not win friends.
Recognize the sapping kind of feedback for what it is. It cannot be used to improve, and is simply said to slow you down. When someone feels threatened, they often lash out and attempt to get others to feel a way about you, too. I have experienced that in the various sectors of my careers, as stated above. My best advice: choose your battles, avoid situations that are needless, address your own envy/shadows, and find laughter where you can often. Haters have too much time on their hands, don’t give them your life as something with which to play.
You can’t please everyone, so don’t try. Simply do the best for yourself, whatever that looks like.
Now that I have moved myself along in learning, how I get feedback has changed drastically. That was part of what I learned: when, what, and how feedback is useful to my work. Typically, at this stage of my writing, I seek feedback from those closest to me about the viability of a story before I start writing it. Mostly, however, I trust my gut. I write the thing. When it is editor time, I let them tell me what’s what. After the copy is clean, proofed and all, I will then seek reviews from a beta team. Throughout the life of the work, I continue to peruse reviews.
When you know yourself and what you want to write, the confusion about what does and doesn’t work lessens. The more you hone your skills, the less you’ll require feedback about the mechanics. The more you pay attention to beneficial feedback, the less you’ll need to know what elements work best as far as story. Take a course. Learn more about you. Fear of doing so could be a sign that you need to face something and work on weak points. Don’t deny yourself that opportunity!
For my novels, I tend to be far more secretive about the work. It is the screenplays that I like feedback on now, and from those within the industry. A couple of drafts in, I start the process of entering it in contests and meeting with executives to hear their take. The biggest feedback I need is about my pacing and also that pesky logline. Pacing in a film is a lot harder to pin down than in a novel. You sort of know that half way you should be in the thick of things but good. In a script, you are given the grace of five pages to get to the good stuff, and then trying to break the entire piece it into acts, and so on. Try it sometime. Holy cow is it a feat!
At any time in your journey, feel free to seek the feedback you need to make your story the best possible. Set your fears and bad feelings aside. Treat yourself to structured classes that help you work on crafting, or whatever stage you’re looking at. You deserve that. Lastly, don’t compare your journey to another writer. Your path is yours alone. Yes, degrees and all of that are stages that lift you up along that journey.
I hope this has been helpful to the aspiring writers seeking answers as to what their path should look like. Sometimes, all the pieces come out of order, and that is ok. Never stop learning, and learn how to learn best. Don’t sell yourself short because you’re afraid what you’ll learn about yourself. And, lastly, don’t poo poo another who has done the steps and deserves the credit. They have a right to be proud and loud about it. They earned that! You can earn it, too.
I’d like you to try a fun activity. Google your favorite author and their education. That should help give perspective and also an idea of what to pursue for your own writing. Once you’ve done that, please explore the topic of anti-intellectualism and its uses. That is great research to have in our field!
Click on the links below to see what the other authors have to say about when and where they seek feedback, and what that looks like. Each author’s path is unique. They offer something for everyone to consider in their own journey. Take what’s useful! I’ll see you back here next week. Be sure to subscribe to get this hop delivered to your inbox weekly.
I checked online and there are several bestselling and famous authors without any formal educational degrees, but instead were obviously born with an innate talent to write. These authors demonstrate that formal education is not always necessary to achieve literary success and recognition. Their works have had a significant impact on literature:
Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens) – Known for classics like “The Adventures of Tom Sawyer” and “The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn,” Twain had little formal education and left school after the fifth grade to become a printer’s apprentice.
Jack London – The author of “The Call of the Wild” and “White Fang” dropped out of high school and later briefly attended the University of California, Berkeley, but never graduated.
Ray Bradbury – Best known for “Fahrenheit 451,” Bradbury did not attend college. Instead, he spent his time reading in libraries, which he considered his true education.
George Bernard Shaw – The Irish playwright and critic who wrote “Pygmalion” did not complete any formal schooling beyond the age of 15.
Maya Angelou – The celebrated author of “I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings” and renowned poet and civil rights activist had no college degree but received numerous honorary degrees later in life.
Harper Lee – The author of the classic “To Kill a Mockingbird” attended college but did not earn a degree.
Agatha Christie – The “Queen of Mystery,” who wrote 66 detective novels, did not have a formal higher education. She was home-schooled and later educated in finishing schools in Paris.
Maya did take college courses but did not finish. Harper Lee only published one book, and it took her years to follow up with another, which wasn’t reviewed as well. Doesn’t seem like a great big list, but it is names people who want to skip out could lean against for hope. I think it is wiser to take the classes and understand your art and benefit from peer criticism in such spheres. Especially, this is the case in a world where more have them than don’t and it does provide a pivotal advantage. 7 out of the history of authors isn’t a big number, to be honest.
“Author levels of education
As of 2021, the most common background for a US author (60%) is to be educated to Bachelor’s level.
Authors educated to a Master’s level come second (16%) (that’s 76% of all authors in the US alone) and those educated to an Associate level rank third (10%) (now we’er eat 86%).
Authors educated to a Bachelor’s level are over three times more common than those educated to a Master’s level.
Authors with a Doctorate represent 5% (that makes 91% of all authors in the US).
Authors with other educational levels represent 9%.
Level of education Percentage
Associate 10%
Bachelor’s 60%
Master’s 16%
Doctorate 5%
Other 9%” — https://wordsrated.com/author-demographics-statistics/
That all means that you’re expected to write at a bachelor’s level, in the least, to meet expectations set by the cohort alone. 9% with less than a college degree (meaning some college, or just high school and less) are not the norm and aren’t setting the standards of writing. If you divide out that 9% further, you can whittle it down to a few percent that have less than some college writing professionally and succeeding. It’s not a wise move if you want to equip yourself for success to go that route. It’s a much harder path that requires innate talent, as you mentioned, and there have been maybe 6 of them in the past how long? according to the list you provided.
In the end, I will still advise new and would be writers to go to school for the best possible chance at their success. It would be cruel to misguide them otherwise, if not self-serving. I’m not putting people seeking my advice at a disadvantage for pride’s sake.
It’s important to keep ownership of your work and learn to sort through feedback for the helpful bits. The rest, you can just ignore! @samanthabwriter from
Balancing Act
It’s so valid to toss feedback that doesn’t make sense to you, for any reason–especially when it threatens to put a stop to you trying.
While any criticism is valid and may require a thicker skin than you were expecting, your beta readers are a group you control. Once you have been working with them for a while, you can see and allow for their individuality and candour.
They are a gold mine to the author who has them.
An author needs to figure out the difference between unwarranted criticism and feedback. It’s hard to do, especially in the beginning.
And can be so defeating. A support system is the best defense against losing hope.